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Why I'm against flow
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Why I'm against flow 2014-09-06 17:51:10  
Well I'm not against all flow... but I do think it's possible for tracks to have too much of it. Catchy title though :p
And just right now I'll say please read the whole post before you respond. And remember these are my opinions. I'm not trying to force you to adopt them, I'm only hoping you'll give some thought to a point of view you might not have considered before.
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Compared to any other level designing community I've been a part of, Trackmania's community has a very unusual idea of what level design is. Level design in most games is meant to take a backseat to the player. If you think of it as a movie, the stars of the movie are the actors not the sets. Level design is functional, and good level design in most other games is a level design where the form fits the function. In Trackmania, though, the tracks that win awards are the ones that ones that make the game about them. Personally I'd call them art pieces... and that's not a bad thing when you've got one or two of them.

But when art pieces are all that anyone is trying to make you don't have much of a game anymore. I think that's why time attack is so popular. I'm a fan of rounds mode because it feels more like a direct competition and not a leaderboard, but even I see why it doesn't get more attention outside of serious competitions: on a track that's about perfect flow there aren't any awkward moments to create tension, and without tension the game isn't interesting. And even I don't like to play rounds on most of the tracks that get loads of awards. In the simplest terms, it's very hard to have an interesting race on a track that was made to be more interesting than the race.

Don't stop building the tracks you like. But the next time you play a track that doesn't flow perfectly, if it has a couple edgy jumps and braky turns, maybe don't be so quick to think the author did that by mistake. Maybe they were trying to make a game that was about you instead of their level. ;)
Learner Driver
Location: CA
2014-09-06 21:57:00  
so actually i didnt car that much about flow in the past i mostly tried to make the jump smooth which is sth very important in my opinion, but yeah i noticed that my tracks weren't that fun to drive and were very hard to drive, too.

so the most important thing for me now is the flow and i dont try to build nice jumps especially in techmaps.
for fs-maps jumps are sth very important, but they should not destroy the flow, cause the flow is the factor which decides if a track is nice/fun to drive or not.
Beetle Racer
Location: DE
2014-09-07 00:14:30  
That's actually a cool way to think about it, Kaia!
An intentional flowbreaker could make tracks a lot more interesting. Similar to how a little birthmark can make someone's face more interesting!
I'll try to implement that into my next map somehow. I want to try that :build:
gado is a
Location: DE
2014-09-07 01:44:00  
I tend to feel like the odd man out in terms of the tracks I enjoy because I have that opinion most of the time also. I can't count how many times I've cringed because someone downvotes a track online because they don't think it flows exactly like they think it was supposed to. I remember reading the Tween (sry if the name is wrong) interview and he was asked about why he likes to hunt Nadeo tracks. He responded that they're like puzzles that are figured out by many people over time. That's one of the major factors of enjoyment for me with TrackMania, figuring out strategies and learning new things as I go. Finding creative ways to make things that at first seem awkward or off into something normal. I find that tracks which eliminate all those factors in an effort to be as flowy and smooth as possible to become monotonous. Now, I do enjoy them for what they are from time to time, but for me they can lack personality and become dull. That being said I try to get a good mix of tracks to play, from Nadeo tracks and Trial tracks, to Competetive tracks and whatever I can find on TMX.

Here is the snippet of the interview:
... says:
9. You're active Nadeo driver also, especially on longer and harder maps. Why do you hunt Nadeo maps?
What's different about Nadeo maps is that they feel like a puzzle. A puzzle that's solved by many people over a long period of time. Whereas competitive tech maps can sometimes be just about perfecting a fairly obvious way of driving the map, there is a lot more space for creativity on Nadeo maps. Different minor bugs and cuts are found all the time (I love cutting very much). I find that intriguing, especially the way that some maps have transformed completely over those years, just because people now drive them with different, faster approaches.

http://tm.mania-exchange.com/blogs/entry/403/tm-interview-project-tween-eswc-special
G-kart Racer
Location: US
2014-09-09 20:07:38  
Well, that is really a way to look at maps I never thought about.

For me, maps (especially mine) always had to have the maximum flow that is possible. On some maps I managed to get it, on some others not.

Kaiaatsel says:
Level design is functional, and good level design in most other games is a level design where the form fits the function. In Trackmania, though, the tracks that win awards are the ones that ones that make the game about them.

Might be true for other games but in my opinion building a map in trackmania is one kind of actually playing the game. You are right when you say maps have to be functional. There is nothing worse for me than a map that is extremely creative and has new transitions and stuff but isn't well playable... but on those maps the only thing that's really missing most of the time is the flow.
But I think maps can be more than just functional and playable. Those are (for me) maps with a great flow. You said you call them art pieces and I guess that is the best way to describe those maps.

Kaiaatsel says:
But when art pieces are all that anyone is trying to make you don't have much of a game anymore.

True. There have to be rough and weird maps. For me those maps are a big part of the game too. They are fun to me from time to time but maps I really love are maps with a great flow.

Kaiaatsel says:
on a track that's about perfect flow there aren't any awkward moments to create tension, and without tension the game isn't interesting.

I think maps that aim for the perfect flow also can have sections that give you tension. You should not confuse flowy with just easy when it comes to this. ;)

Kaiaatsel says:
But the next time you play a track that doesn't flow perfectly, if it has a couple edgy jumps and braky turns, maybe don't be so quick to think the author did that by mistake.

edk says:
I can't count how many times I've cringed because someone downvotes a track online because they don't think it flows exactly like they think it was supposed to.

That are two points everyone should think about, me too. I can't tell how often I voted bad for a map online myself just because there were one or two spots that were kind of strange or awkward.

Well, I guess this thread changed my view on building maps and rating them...even if it's just a little bit. ;)
I think you guys mentioned some points that are really worth to think about. Thanks for that.
Old Age Caravanner
Location: DE
2014-09-10 00:28:57  
Nice topic Kaia, I agree with you. I often build maps with some unflowy turns too, and in most cases those turns are the best. I'm often annoyed of that for example ESL and some other league organizers seem to care only about flow and drifting (talking about stadium) while there are a lot more challenge to create with unflowy corners as well.
Beetle Racer
Location: FI
2014-09-11 18:06:13  
Everything flows if you just drive it right :cool:

So building flow is overrated :cool:
· · · – – – · · ·
Location: SE
2014-09-18 08:02:10  
Kaiaatsel says:
Why I'm against flow

You made a nice blog article post as a forum post.
Surely Retired
Location: GB
2014-09-19 21:55:54  
Tuta says:
Everything flows if you just drive it right :cool:

So building flow is overrated :cool:


:done:
Beetle Racer
Location: FI
2014-09-20 19:44:55  
Kaiaatsel says:
On a track that's about perfect flow there aren't any awkward moments to create tension, and without tension the game isn't interesting.


As the one and only person in the MX crew who can honestly said he's built a 9:30 map with a 9-use and PERFECT FLOW (It has, trust me on this one), you can't be more wrong. 8-|
The Green Dude
Location: ES
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